JollyPieFedRomanian top court annuls presidential election result
Hubiwww.reuters.com/world/europe/thousands-attend-p…
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Thoralf WillFor how long do we keep pretending to live in peace?
Yes, there are no rockets flying from Russia (yet).
But undermining political institutions is not less dangerous than a rocket.
Absolutely.
There's a pretty strong sentiment in EU that we are in fact in a hybrid war with Russia now.
So maybe we are finally reaching a point where we stop pretending?
EU Countries that don't do much to help Ukraine, are not doing their Due diligence.
ThePowerOfGeekHey Russian election interference is perfectly fine and perfectly legal.
-Trump
Having polled in single digits before the first presidential election round on Nov. 24, Calin Georgescu - who wants to end Romanian support for Ukraine against Russia's invasion - surged to a victory that raised questions over how such a surprise had been possible
Romania's top security council on Wednesday said the country was a target of "aggressive hybrid Russian attacks" during the election period.
The electoral process to elect Romania's president will be fully re-run,
It's a gutsy move, but I think it's a good call.
The court’s decision follows dramatic revelations of alleged foreign influence on the contest. Earlier this week, the Romanian government declassified intelligence files that strongly suggested to a Russian-backed campaign to corrupt the election.
The documents said 25,000 pro-Georgescu accounts on social media app TikTok burst into action just two weeks before the first-round vote.
Yep I think the move is harsh. But this is literally happening in every other democracy and they are just pretending it isn’t. Kudos to romania for tackling the issue head-on.
Kudos to romania for tackling the issue head-on.
Exactly, accepting Russian propaganda needs to stop. Russian propaganda must be as illegal as Nazism is in most countries.
I am not so sure about this.
The people who made their opinion based on tiktok will be pissed off. The article mentions no proof of rigging or other direct interference with the voting process itself. This is a huge problem for democracy, if the image is that only the candidates approved by the court are allowed to be elected and unfavorable election results get annulled. And Russia will play this angle heavily.
Unless there is specific evidence of the voting process itself being rigged, this sounds like a recipe for disaster. Then Russia could even get a civil war in an EU country out of it rather than just a pro-Russian candidate winning.
FaceDeerThe fact that they're re-running the election rather than just handing it to the #2 candidate should alleviate a lot of these concerns. If after a second run through with full information available and the foreign influence networks suppressed the population *still* genuinely seems to want the Russian asset in charge then I guess at that point you have to sigh and give it to them.
The people who made their opinion based on tiktok will be pissed off.
You know there are very specific rules about campaigning for an election.
Allegedly Georgescu's campaign disclosed zero expenses, yet it was obvious there was a campaign that advertised him with thousands accounts on ticktock.
Obviously you shouldn't be allowed to break campaign rules just because you are a foreign intelligence service sabotaging an election.
Notice that things like the shitty Super-packs in USA are ALSO illegal in EU.
In EU there is regulation where major interest parties need to be declared. And at least 1 such entity was operating illegally on behalf of Georgescu.
So it seems to me, the legal side of the decision is pretty clear.
Unless there is specific evidence of the voting process itself being rigged, this sounds like a recipe for disaster.
I disagree, if Russia has made massive manipulative propaganda based on lies, that needs to be addressed. An election should not be based on lies. Especially not outside propaganda.
By that standard, the 2016 presidential election in USA was also based on much Russian propaganda, but the Americans didn't have the balls to call it out directly.
And now they have elected a fraudulent criminal for president. In my country, the parliament would without a doubt deem Trump unfit to serve.
In this situation it is USA that is a dysfunctional democracy, and not Romania.
So who gets to decide what was "outside propaganda" grave enough to not recognise an election result? Will this be a general criteria or just a convienent selectively enforced one?
Because if this is a general criteria, next time Russia just needs to make propaganda for the strongest party and have the court annule the result and redo the election infinitely.
If it is only selectively enforced, it is just undemocratic and a measure by the current rulers to abolish democracy. Think about people like Orban just claiming there was too much foreign propaganda for the opposition.
Finally from a democratic theory point of view it doesnt work. Either every vote has the same value and you have a democracy. Or there is arbitrary decisions on whose vote is worthless because they were too dumb to fall for foreign propaganda, effectively removing the fairness and freedom of the vote.
Also these measures dont address the route cause. If the propaganda can get people to elect someone it can get them to do other things, like revolting, sabotage, violent crime... You need to address the propaganda channels and psychological attack angles.
So who gets to decide what was “outside propaganda”
That's a weird question, since Romania already demonstrated that, and it's in the article. The top security council brought the evidence, and the top court made the judgement.
So it wasn't a single entity, but the combination of 2 of the highest security institution together with the highest court. That's EXACTLY the way to do it.
They did exactly what it's their job to do, which blatantly failed in USA, where the courts are compromised too.
I really hope that Romanian leading by example will become a model for the rest of Europe. AND that EU will begin to retaliate against Russia for undermining our democracies.
Wow that's a extreme measure, but crazy times require crazy solutions.
I'm still wondering: How do they prevent russian meddeling in the next election?
Counter-propaganda
This is not going to rebuild trust in democratic institutions for those that voted for Georgescu. This is just kicking the can down the road.
@misk you sumed up perfectly. The danger still exists and what the power does is just making use of some legal levers to kick the nazis out. If they ever get in power, this is not gonna end well for us.
However, the solution was still not to continue with the election. The solution was to take action at the right time, not wait untill they become a real threat.
Hope the authorities will do their job better moving forward.
@Hubi
True, but also allowing foreign interference in elections is also not confidence inspiring. Especially when it's unnoticed and surreptitiously done.
Now people will get a closer look at him, he might get votes again, he might not. Either way, Russia won.
Those people knew and voted for that guy regardless so this is not fixing anything and looks quite bad for the democratic process, especially to them. Do you believe mainstream parties don’t do the same internet influence campaigns? Suppose this Georgescu guy is guilty of various campaign financing issues but where’s the due process?
Yes, I agree, but doing nothing is a problem too. I didn't follow the court case, but I assume the fact that this came from the court means there was due process.
I think the problem is less that he has campaign finance issues, more that there is a foreign government purposely undermining free elections in another country.
I somehow doubt that couple of days is enough for prosecution to make a case or for judges to go through the evidence. Due process traditionally allows for appeals too.
I’m from Poland where previous populist right government set up constitutional court with their own politicians and it will take time to replace them legally. Currently that court is a laughing stock because they rule on everything, mostly outside of what they actually can, seemingly on their own and at moments notice.
What Romanian constitutional court did sounds kinda similar and it worries me. Are we throwing away democracy because otherwise we get fascism? I’m not sure if we’re not going to end with fascism anyway, just with liberal aesthetics.
Yes, it's a worry. However, look at America where Russian election interference led to Trump. Then he did illegal things was impeached but is now reelected and faces no consequences as he was able to slow walk the courts.
In 2016 Russian influence campaigns targeted both Clinton and Trump to sow mistrust in the democratic process so it’s not the whole story. This year Trump, on his own (and his billionaire friends) won by a landslide in terms of popular vote. There was interference for sure but it’s not enough to affect elections by this margin. It’s being told like that to absolve ourselves from bearing responsibility for creating a reality where half of the population feels left out to the point where they want to demolish everything.